> HOT SINGLES in YOUR AREA want you to STOP EATING CHICKEN, EGGS, AND FARMED FISH.
This but unironically though. I always tell people that, as a woman in STEM, my best dating advice is to develop interests that are deeply skewed towards the gender you're attracted to, and those people will be so excited to meet someone of their desired gender who actually is into $THING. Becoming a committed vegetarian as a straight man would certainly qualify.
I'm the target audience to be convinced. Although I don't think I could convince the rest of my family to go vegan, and therefore couldn't go wholly vegan myself, I do want to reduce animal products I eat, especially for breakfast and lunch since I make those just for myself.
The problem is, it's hard and I don't know how. Any amount of making menu plans + posting delicious looking recipes + giving helpful tips is probably very helpful, because that's the main thing standing between me and eating less meat and I'm sure I'm not the only one. I like lots of things, but coming up with protein foods that are easy to make and satisfying for lunch leaves me drawing a blank.
This comment is half giving readers ideas for how to promote veganism, but half a plea for lunch suggestions. 😅
“ Messages which compare farmed animals to companion animals or to humans tend to be persuasive. Messages which compare humans to farmed animals tend not to be persuasive. ”
Huh? This seems contradictory. Is this a typo, or is there supposed to be some difference between “comparing farmed animals to humans” and “comparing humans to farmed animals” that I’m not getting?
I think it is also important to look into *why* certain things are more convincing than others. For instance, shcoking images seem appropriate if they make people better understand the nature of the issue, but inappropriate if they make people misunderstand the nature of the issue.
Optimizing for persuading people rather than optimizing for making people understand seems like a form of propaganda production. (Sorry, I have read too much Ben Hoffman.)
I'm surprised this post doesn't seem to touch upon the main point of contention I have with veg.anism, which is the question of impact.
Like, say I'm a consequentialist. Telling me "the farming industry causes untold death and suffering" will easily persuade me to commit to pressing a magic button to end it all overnight if I find myself in a convenient thought experiment, but so long as I'm one guy in a world that doesn't seem likely to stop inhumane farming conditions (let alone meat consumption altogether) in the foreseeable decades, I don't see how that translates to my having a duty to abstain from all those products.
Veganism/vegeterianism really aren't big enough to amount to an effective boycott, and we're lightyears away from a place where my individual choice to buy eggs or not has any material impact on any actual chickens. In the meantime, if I have a heart then I'll spare the cow a thought when I'm eating beef, but it wasn't me that killed it, and I just don't see that there's any meaningful level on which I'd be saving any of its yet-unslaughtered brethren if I abstained from eating that steak.
So, to round back to the paper — I dunno, I'm really surprised that this whole area isn't a bigger deal. They may not formalize it to the same degree, but I'm convinced a large number of non-vegans think along similar lines when they consider the prospect of vegetarianism. "Maybe it's bad that slaughterhouses exist but I, Joe Average, won't be closing any down by denying myself a hamburger, and the boat has sailed for that particular cow, so I may as well." (This is, IMO, why vegans are stereotyped as neurotic self-flagellators — given the lack of an individual real-world impact, it's perceived as simply an act of self-punishment for a perceived shared human guilt, rather than a way to actually make the world better.) And I therefore wouldn't expect arguments that don't account for that side of the issue to have much impact in the grand scheme of things, because caring about the animals (and even feeling *capable* of going vegan) isn't the bottleneck.
People tend to prefer familiar food (pasta, roast potatoes, salads) to less familiar food (bean soups, tofu, certain vegan meat alternatives). Unfortunately, pasta and roast potatoes is not a balanced diet, ********so it’s also important to introduce less familiar food.*********
That's what many vegans seem to think, but I don't believe it's true at all (the part within asterisks, that is).
I think vegans sabotage their own cause by insisting unnecessarily on foods off-putting to westerners, such as soy in various forms, whole grains, and stuff with weird Asian names.
It is not hard to put together a good diet using just plant foods westerners grew up with (which does include beans - are people not familiar with beans???), and without having to shun white rice and white flour. I've been eating more or less that way for almost 15 years.
I'm not exactly a vegan evangelist, because I know that people hate that kind of vegan. But the few times I tried to convince someone to go vegan, the selling point was that "plant food is just as tasty as animal food"! (which is a lie; meat is disgusting). The times I've tried it, I was able to get people to agree (with the statement, not with becoming vegan). "Plant food is just as tasty as animal food" implies that a vegan diet can be centered around the plant foods you grew up with and already love, and does not have to include weird foods like soy.
I am confused about the claim that "beef tends to be the worst for health and the environment, so health and environment messages might encourage people to eat more beef."
Are you saying that because people might react negatively to advocacy, they would say "screw you, if it's worst I'll just eat MORE"? Because otherwise I would think that if beef is worst for health & environment, then messaging around those things would encourage people to eat LESS.
I also don't understand why cows, pigs, etc are held to suffer less than chickens. You say that but don't explain it. Can you clarify? The way you put it made it sound like it wasn't simply because there were more chickens than the others. So why else would it be?
What are the estimates for non-industrially produced eggs? I live in a rural area where people sell eggs from "few chickens per backyard coop" type operations and while I have NOT made effort to buy exclusively those, I'm willing to do this (especially as they're not significantly more expensive) if it reduces the suffering from 60 days to under 10.
2) I did not realise the suffering cost of farmed fish. On learning this, I will attempt to switch most of my salmon consumption to wild caught white fish + mackerel and herring for oily fish. This is also proof of simply informing people of those numbers.
I mean, Days of Suffering per Kilogram is pretty evocative and practical scale to inform decisions. For my own use I might even convert it to Hours of Suffering per 100 kcal, referring to approximate calorie need per hour, effectively converting it to Hours of Suffering per Hour of Existence.
> HOT SINGLES in YOUR AREA want you to STOP EATING CHICKEN, EGGS, AND FARMED FISH.
This but unironically though. I always tell people that, as a woman in STEM, my best dating advice is to develop interests that are deeply skewed towards the gender you're attracted to, and those people will be so excited to meet someone of their desired gender who actually is into $THING. Becoming a committed vegetarian as a straight man would certainly qualify.
I'm the target audience to be convinced. Although I don't think I could convince the rest of my family to go vegan, and therefore couldn't go wholly vegan myself, I do want to reduce animal products I eat, especially for breakfast and lunch since I make those just for myself.
The problem is, it's hard and I don't know how. Any amount of making menu plans + posting delicious looking recipes + giving helpful tips is probably very helpful, because that's the main thing standing between me and eating less meat and I'm sure I'm not the only one. I like lots of things, but coming up with protein foods that are easy to make and satisfying for lunch leaves me drawing a blank.
This comment is half giving readers ideas for how to promote veganism, but half a plea for lunch suggestions. 😅
“ Messages which compare farmed animals to companion animals or to humans tend to be persuasive. Messages which compare humans to farmed animals tend not to be persuasive. ”
Huh? This seems contradictory. Is this a typo, or is there supposed to be some difference between “comparing farmed animals to humans” and “comparing humans to farmed animals” that I’m not getting?
I think it is also important to look into *why* certain things are more convincing than others. For instance, shcoking images seem appropriate if they make people better understand the nature of the issue, but inappropriate if they make people misunderstand the nature of the issue.
Optimizing for persuading people rather than optimizing for making people understand seems like a form of propaganda production. (Sorry, I have read too much Ben Hoffman.)
I'm surprised this post doesn't seem to touch upon the main point of contention I have with veg.anism, which is the question of impact.
Like, say I'm a consequentialist. Telling me "the farming industry causes untold death and suffering" will easily persuade me to commit to pressing a magic button to end it all overnight if I find myself in a convenient thought experiment, but so long as I'm one guy in a world that doesn't seem likely to stop inhumane farming conditions (let alone meat consumption altogether) in the foreseeable decades, I don't see how that translates to my having a duty to abstain from all those products.
Veganism/vegeterianism really aren't big enough to amount to an effective boycott, and we're lightyears away from a place where my individual choice to buy eggs or not has any material impact on any actual chickens. In the meantime, if I have a heart then I'll spare the cow a thought when I'm eating beef, but it wasn't me that killed it, and I just don't see that there's any meaningful level on which I'd be saving any of its yet-unslaughtered brethren if I abstained from eating that steak.
So, to round back to the paper — I dunno, I'm really surprised that this whole area isn't a bigger deal. They may not formalize it to the same degree, but I'm convinced a large number of non-vegans think along similar lines when they consider the prospect of vegetarianism. "Maybe it's bad that slaughterhouses exist but I, Joe Average, won't be closing any down by denying myself a hamburger, and the boat has sailed for that particular cow, so I may as well." (This is, IMO, why vegans are stereotyped as neurotic self-flagellators — given the lack of an individual real-world impact, it's perceived as simply an act of self-punishment for a perceived shared human guilt, rather than a way to actually make the world better.) And I therefore wouldn't expect arguments that don't account for that side of the issue to have much impact in the grand scheme of things, because caring about the animals (and even feeling *capable* of going vegan) isn't the bottleneck.
Do you have analyses of pasture-raised certified-humane eggs?
Ozy wrote:
People tend to prefer familiar food (pasta, roast potatoes, salads) to less familiar food (bean soups, tofu, certain vegan meat alternatives). Unfortunately, pasta and roast potatoes is not a balanced diet, ********so it’s also important to introduce less familiar food.*********
That's what many vegans seem to think, but I don't believe it's true at all (the part within asterisks, that is).
I think vegans sabotage their own cause by insisting unnecessarily on foods off-putting to westerners, such as soy in various forms, whole grains, and stuff with weird Asian names.
It is not hard to put together a good diet using just plant foods westerners grew up with (which does include beans - are people not familiar with beans???), and without having to shun white rice and white flour. I've been eating more or less that way for almost 15 years.
I'm not exactly a vegan evangelist, because I know that people hate that kind of vegan. But the few times I tried to convince someone to go vegan, the selling point was that "plant food is just as tasty as animal food"! (which is a lie; meat is disgusting). The times I've tried it, I was able to get people to agree (with the statement, not with becoming vegan). "Plant food is just as tasty as animal food" implies that a vegan diet can be centered around the plant foods you grew up with and already love, and does not have to include weird foods like soy.
What are these “robust estimates”? They go against my intuitions so I’m interested in reading them. How do they “adjust for sentence”?
"When you include both land animals and sea animals, 69% of farmed land animals are shellfish, 16% are chickens, and 14% are fish."
I think something went wrong with this sentence, and it's not obvious to me exactly what.
I am confused about the claim that "beef tends to be the worst for health and the environment, so health and environment messages might encourage people to eat more beef."
Are you saying that because people might react negatively to advocacy, they would say "screw you, if it's worst I'll just eat MORE"? Because otherwise I would think that if beef is worst for health & environment, then messaging around those things would encourage people to eat LESS.
I also don't understand why cows, pigs, etc are held to suffer less than chickens. You say that but don't explain it. Can you clarify? The way you put it made it sound like it wasn't simply because there were more chickens than the others. So why else would it be?
1) Are "cage free" eggs the same as "free range"?
What are the estimates for non-industrially produced eggs? I live in a rural area where people sell eggs from "few chickens per backyard coop" type operations and while I have NOT made effort to buy exclusively those, I'm willing to do this (especially as they're not significantly more expensive) if it reduces the suffering from 60 days to under 10.
2) I did not realise the suffering cost of farmed fish. On learning this, I will attempt to switch most of my salmon consumption to wild caught white fish + mackerel and herring for oily fish. This is also proof of simply informing people of those numbers.
Well, many wannabe-vegans will be delighted that that most difficult of all things to give up, cheese, is not on your list of priorities.
I mean, Days of Suffering per Kilogram is pretty evocative and practical scale to inform decisions. For my own use I might even convert it to Hours of Suffering per 100 kcal, referring to approximate calorie need per hour, effectively converting it to Hours of Suffering per Hour of Existence.