Nice of you to do this for everyone! Very good points--you have to get along with others, and you have to be a participant in the favor economy, as you say.
I think there's also an aspect of 'they have to know about you', and knowing someone the hiring person trusts is one of the few ways to stand out when millions of people can submit resumes. That's part of the reason companies recruit at certain colleges--they know the 'product' from that college fits certain parameters they want.
I think ultimately though it is sort of a self-interested thing where they want to be with people they like because it makes work more pleasant, and so it turns into a high-school popularity contest. That's why autistic people do so well in startups--the ability to do the work is more important, and they fit in better with the other autistic people starting the company. As the company grows it gets more of a corporate character and they feel less comfortable.
A good manager of mine when we were going through a really tough patch at work forced us to sit down have a cup of tea and cake with the extended team once a week with the only rule of no work chat.
I thought it was stupid at the time tbh, but in a high pressure situation it was the starting thing that made other people seem human. It wasn’t what got us out of the hole but it enabled the trust that was necessary to get the process going.
It turns out that listening to a long description of Sarah from HRs husbands inept attempts at unblocking a toilet last Saturday really is vital - it allows you just that touch more humanity when she messes up and her to understand that your frustration is not personal etc.
6yrs on, I know that I can pick up the phone to anyone who joined that meeting and ask for a small favour - despite the fact that none of the conversation was anything about work.
Another potential benefit of building a network is that it increases the range of problems for which you can say "ooh, I know *exactly* who you should talk to".
So I think mayyybe (tho I'm old, live in a place that operates at least partially on a sort of roughly 1895 principles, haven't had an "employed" job this century and NEVER had a job that was advertised as a "vacancy" or "job", so this is sure a look from outside) that people hear "networking" and they often imagine a *specific and peculiar way of knowing people*. While in reality isn't it simply KNOWING PEOPLE (and this being known, and thus being able to participate in that favour and reputation economy).
And my hypothesis is that because WEIRDs have this (historically/geographically bizarre and kinda unnatural though probably ethically desirable in large organisations) norm of "hiring people on merit only", the notion of "professional networking" was sort of invented (I'm not saying on purpose) as a conceptual workaround: it's not favouritism/nepotism (Bad Things in this framework). It's networking.
It's a little different in that the point is you're specifically trying to find people you're not already networked with to favor you, though. In general from what I can see it's mostly the middle class that does this; the upper classes are already networked through college, etc. and it sort of melds seamlessly with their social life.
Yup, in certain areas everything is a networking event, but not called such. It’s expected to give elevator pitches and offer assistance. If you don’t, it’s looked at with suspicion.
Ah yes. Makes sense. I live in a very, very small place in absolute population terms now and when I used to live in a much bigger place decades ago, I worked in an area were you kinda knew "everyone who mattered" via social or semi-social means (eg via academic connections).
Everything that you say is correct, but there is another thing I would like to flag. Often, there is a starting cost to social interaction because you can’t generally go around making request or asking favour of somebody. You’ve never interacted with before so meeting people and talking to them. Even once is a big help for Small favours. It’s kind of basically breaking the ice and creating the possibility of future social interactions without the initial starting cost. Having this possibility of free social interaction in the future is valuable, so you want to pay this initial cost as soon as possible for as many people as possible. Also lots of favours which are very easy for the person providing the favour are very valuable for you. For example, job opportunities that you hear through word of mouth. And knowing people in a particular field is often actively helpful for your job. So an employer will favour Somebody who knows a lot of people in the field both because they’ll have an easier time working with people in the team and hiring new people and also because for lots of jobs, you have to work with other people in the field like bureaucrats for regulatory approval. Already knowing people makes even mandatory social interactions easier and allows for more ease of communication and free information flow. Also, lots of back scratcher Clubs don’t have much of an entry fee, but no such club generally allows you to participate unless you at least know someone in the club. People are more likely to help somebody who knows a friend of theirs or even who just knows an acquaintance. So knowing people even through a lengthy chain of intermediates, makes you part of a back scratcher club.
I think I understand the "why" of networking, but the "how" eludes me. If there's a set of skills required to get a job in a particular field, you can get better at those skills by e.g. taking classes; however, you also usually have the option to find a job in a different field that doesn't require the same skills. That can be incredibly useful for anyone who is bad at those skills and struggles to improve, and also for everyone who hates them. (E.g. many people dislike math, and many people are bad at math and struggle to improve; fortunately, there are plenty of jobs that don't require any math beyond arithmetic, and calculators are ubiquitous to help with that.)
Are there any equivalent fields for people who dislike networking, and for people who struggle with networking? I keep hearing about how networking is essential to finding a job and performing well at basically any job; that sounds like a message to me and other autistic people saying "either you will never find/keep a good job, or you'll have to mask constantly and always be miserable".
So I'm Xennial, and AI has thrown everything out of whack, so who knows what's going to work now, but figure I might as well share my experience in case it's useful. I'm going to be cagey about what I actually do (this is the Internet and I'm being controversial), but this is my general experience:
In general you had to do something that made you so in demand networking was less important. It still helps, of course, but the skill can compensate for a deficiency in the area. The big one was of course computers, but in general math-related stuff (statistics, actuarial science, engineering) tended to have (a) relatively few people able to do it and (b) a talent pool that was more on the spectrum anyway so the businesses were sort of forced to put up with you. Some forms of blue-collar work like the trades were like that too, but I don't know nearly enough about that part of society to comment further.
That's all male-coded, of course; my understanding was the female autistics masked enough to get government civil service jobs or stuff that was nerd-coded like librarian where they wouldn't look at you too funny if you were a little weird. I'm sure someone here has better lived experience to comment.
Now AI has wrecked a lot of lower-level IT employment, and government jobs aren't safe like they used to be. So I don't know what the optimal strategy is going forward.
I will say, yeah, you're right, it did involve a lot of masking, and the emotional energy invested probably was a big reason I didn't date until relatively late (there were other reasons). So, yeah, it's an unpleasant fact of life, and I wish people who say things like 'bring your whole self to work' would stop saying crap like that. (I can guess why they do, but it's kind of derailing the thread.) All I can say is learn financial literacy early (the younger generations are smarter about this) and save and invest as early as possible; once you have a substantial cushion these things are a lot less stressful. But that's harder and harder for new generations with stagnant wages and rising rents, I know.
Right now, health care might be the industry with the biggest worker shortage, but being a registered nurse might not be the best job for someone with a social skills deficit anyway. :/
> You’re showing people what you’re actually like (which, hopefully, is a responsible and pleasant person).
But how do social connections help you figure out someone's character _at work_ ? I vary significantly on how responsible and/or pleasant I am based on context: I will plan the trips and comfort the friend and help you research for your DnD game, but to infer whether I will stay late meeting a deadline from that seems like it could go either way.
(Although I guess someone who treats these categories of thing differently enough is also likely to be socially notable for treating them differently?)
When hiring for some jobs, it's more important to just get someone that won't be a disaster than it is to get the best person in the applicant pool. And ordinary social interaction is often enough to show that someone isn't a thief or something.
I think it's a combination of 'socially adept people are more fun to be with' and 'socially adept people are going to be more able to complete work tasks, which are often social'. As you are (I think?) alluding to there is a substantial free-rider problem from lazy people and sociopaths, but that's harder to figure out, and unfortunately sociopaths are often good at the social parts of the job (as long as they don't turn on YOU).
(The more I think about this stuff the happier I am I didn't breed!)
The more you show up everywhere with your whole self, the more how you behave regardless of context will be aligned with your values. And when you consistently follow your values, this makes you predictable (maybe other people can’t quite put into words what your into words what those values are that you follow, but they’ll be like, yeah, that tracks). Predictability is a good thing; perhaps the most important thing in business. If something is a “no” for you, it’s better for everyone to hear it early and firmly, and figure out how to do without.
Assuming you can get a job in the first place. That's a very big assumption for most people, especially these days.
I had to amputate *huge* portions of myself to succeed at work. I avoid talking politics, I never mentioned any of the nerd stuff like D&D I was into (ironically the younger people were often OK with it after a few decades went by), and I never learned to flirt *at all* because I could end my career with one bad pass. But hey, I achieved a salary in the mid six figures. And most people never get NEARLY that far! For every polyamorous Silicon Valley guy going to burning man there's 100 awkward persons who put huge amounts of effort into masking well enough to be a file clerk.
You'd think that the "make sure this person isn't a liability" part of this would be well-handled by "talk to the person's previous bosses/reports/coworkers", but for some reason things don't seem to work that way, and that's a pretty minor part of the process?
This explanation makes a lot of sense to me, but what doesn't make sense to me is why this is specifically an explanation "for autistics". Do non-autistic people have some kind of magical intuitive sense for why and how to network? Do they just never ask these questions and just kind of do what everyone else is doing? Or is there something else I'm missing?
I know I have to do conscious reasoning about a lot of social situations that most people handle subconsciously & I kind of figure that if you're in the latter group all my insights are boring and obvious.
Nice of you to do this for everyone! Very good points--you have to get along with others, and you have to be a participant in the favor economy, as you say.
I think there's also an aspect of 'they have to know about you', and knowing someone the hiring person trusts is one of the few ways to stand out when millions of people can submit resumes. That's part of the reason companies recruit at certain colleges--they know the 'product' from that college fits certain parameters they want.
I think ultimately though it is sort of a self-interested thing where they want to be with people they like because it makes work more pleasant, and so it turns into a high-school popularity contest. That's why autistic people do so well in startups--the ability to do the work is more important, and they fit in better with the other autistic people starting the company. As the company grows it gets more of a corporate character and they feel less comfortable.
A good manager of mine when we were going through a really tough patch at work forced us to sit down have a cup of tea and cake with the extended team once a week with the only rule of no work chat.
I thought it was stupid at the time tbh, but in a high pressure situation it was the starting thing that made other people seem human. It wasn’t what got us out of the hole but it enabled the trust that was necessary to get the process going.
It turns out that listening to a long description of Sarah from HRs husbands inept attempts at unblocking a toilet last Saturday really is vital - it allows you just that touch more humanity when she messes up and her to understand that your frustration is not personal etc.
6yrs on, I know that I can pick up the phone to anyone who joined that meeting and ask for a small favour - despite the fact that none of the conversation was anything about work.
Above all, confirmation that the cake is not a lie
Another potential benefit of building a network is that it increases the range of problems for which you can say "ooh, I know *exactly* who you should talk to".
I LOVE doing this haha, so satisfying and fun
So I think mayyybe (tho I'm old, live in a place that operates at least partially on a sort of roughly 1895 principles, haven't had an "employed" job this century and NEVER had a job that was advertised as a "vacancy" or "job", so this is sure a look from outside) that people hear "networking" and they often imagine a *specific and peculiar way of knowing people*. While in reality isn't it simply KNOWING PEOPLE (and this being known, and thus being able to participate in that favour and reputation economy).
And my hypothesis is that because WEIRDs have this (historically/geographically bizarre and kinda unnatural though probably ethically desirable in large organisations) norm of "hiring people on merit only", the notion of "professional networking" was sort of invented (I'm not saying on purpose) as a conceptual workaround: it's not favouritism/nepotism (Bad Things in this framework). It's networking.
It's a little different in that the point is you're specifically trying to find people you're not already networked with to favor you, though. In general from what I can see it's mostly the middle class that does this; the upper classes are already networked through college, etc. and it sort of melds seamlessly with their social life.
Yup, in certain areas everything is a networking event, but not called such. It’s expected to give elevator pitches and offer assistance. If you don’t, it’s looked at with suspicion.
Ah yes. Makes sense. I live in a very, very small place in absolute population terms now and when I used to live in a much bigger place decades ago, I worked in an area were you kinda knew "everyone who mattered" via social or semi-social means (eg via academic connections).
Everything that you say is correct, but there is another thing I would like to flag. Often, there is a starting cost to social interaction because you can’t generally go around making request or asking favour of somebody. You’ve never interacted with before so meeting people and talking to them. Even once is a big help for Small favours. It’s kind of basically breaking the ice and creating the possibility of future social interactions without the initial starting cost. Having this possibility of free social interaction in the future is valuable, so you want to pay this initial cost as soon as possible for as many people as possible. Also lots of favours which are very easy for the person providing the favour are very valuable for you. For example, job opportunities that you hear through word of mouth. And knowing people in a particular field is often actively helpful for your job. So an employer will favour Somebody who knows a lot of people in the field both because they’ll have an easier time working with people in the team and hiring new people and also because for lots of jobs, you have to work with other people in the field like bureaucrats for regulatory approval. Already knowing people makes even mandatory social interactions easier and allows for more ease of communication and free information flow. Also, lots of back scratcher Clubs don’t have much of an entry fee, but no such club generally allows you to participate unless you at least know someone in the club. People are more likely to help somebody who knows a friend of theirs or even who just knows an acquaintance. So knowing people even through a lengthy chain of intermediates, makes you part of a back scratcher club.
I think I understand the "why" of networking, but the "how" eludes me. If there's a set of skills required to get a job in a particular field, you can get better at those skills by e.g. taking classes; however, you also usually have the option to find a job in a different field that doesn't require the same skills. That can be incredibly useful for anyone who is bad at those skills and struggles to improve, and also for everyone who hates them. (E.g. many people dislike math, and many people are bad at math and struggle to improve; fortunately, there are plenty of jobs that don't require any math beyond arithmetic, and calculators are ubiquitous to help with that.)
Are there any equivalent fields for people who dislike networking, and for people who struggle with networking? I keep hearing about how networking is essential to finding a job and performing well at basically any job; that sounds like a message to me and other autistic people saying "either you will never find/keep a good job, or you'll have to mask constantly and always be miserable".
Last post (I know Ozy's sick of me):
So I'm Xennial, and AI has thrown everything out of whack, so who knows what's going to work now, but figure I might as well share my experience in case it's useful. I'm going to be cagey about what I actually do (this is the Internet and I'm being controversial), but this is my general experience:
In general you had to do something that made you so in demand networking was less important. It still helps, of course, but the skill can compensate for a deficiency in the area. The big one was of course computers, but in general math-related stuff (statistics, actuarial science, engineering) tended to have (a) relatively few people able to do it and (b) a talent pool that was more on the spectrum anyway so the businesses were sort of forced to put up with you. Some forms of blue-collar work like the trades were like that too, but I don't know nearly enough about that part of society to comment further.
That's all male-coded, of course; my understanding was the female autistics masked enough to get government civil service jobs or stuff that was nerd-coded like librarian where they wouldn't look at you too funny if you were a little weird. I'm sure someone here has better lived experience to comment.
Now AI has wrecked a lot of lower-level IT employment, and government jobs aren't safe like they used to be. So I don't know what the optimal strategy is going forward.
I will say, yeah, you're right, it did involve a lot of masking, and the emotional energy invested probably was a big reason I didn't date until relatively late (there were other reasons). So, yeah, it's an unpleasant fact of life, and I wish people who say things like 'bring your whole self to work' would stop saying crap like that. (I can guess why they do, but it's kind of derailing the thread.) All I can say is learn financial literacy early (the younger generations are smarter about this) and save and invest as early as possible; once you have a substantial cushion these things are a lot less stressful. But that's harder and harder for new generations with stagnant wages and rising rents, I know.
Right now, health care might be the industry with the biggest worker shortage, but being a registered nurse might not be the best job for someone with a social skills deficit anyway. :/
> You’re showing people what you’re actually like (which, hopefully, is a responsible and pleasant person).
But how do social connections help you figure out someone's character _at work_ ? I vary significantly on how responsible and/or pleasant I am based on context: I will plan the trips and comfort the friend and help you research for your DnD game, but to infer whether I will stay late meeting a deadline from that seems like it could go either way.
(Although I guess someone who treats these categories of thing differently enough is also likely to be socially notable for treating them differently?)
When hiring for some jobs, it's more important to just get someone that won't be a disaster than it is to get the best person in the applicant pool. And ordinary social interaction is often enough to show that someone isn't a thief or something.
I think it's a combination of 'socially adept people are more fun to be with' and 'socially adept people are going to be more able to complete work tasks, which are often social'. As you are (I think?) alluding to there is a substantial free-rider problem from lazy people and sociopaths, but that's harder to figure out, and unfortunately sociopaths are often good at the social parts of the job (as long as they don't turn on YOU).
(The more I think about this stuff the happier I am I didn't breed!)
The more you show up everywhere with your whole self, the more how you behave regardless of context will be aligned with your values. And when you consistently follow your values, this makes you predictable (maybe other people can’t quite put into words what your into words what those values are that you follow, but they’ll be like, yeah, that tracks). Predictability is a good thing; perhaps the most important thing in business. If something is a “no” for you, it’s better for everyone to hear it early and firmly, and figure out how to do without.
Assuming you can get a job in the first place. That's a very big assumption for most people, especially these days.
I had to amputate *huge* portions of myself to succeed at work. I avoid talking politics, I never mentioned any of the nerd stuff like D&D I was into (ironically the younger people were often OK with it after a few decades went by), and I never learned to flirt *at all* because I could end my career with one bad pass. But hey, I achieved a salary in the mid six figures. And most people never get NEARLY that far! For every polyamorous Silicon Valley guy going to burning man there's 100 awkward persons who put huge amounts of effort into masking well enough to be a file clerk.
🙁
Ah, maybe if I had known something about networking before turning 45... oh well
You'd think that the "make sure this person isn't a liability" part of this would be well-handled by "talk to the person's previous bosses/reports/coworkers", but for some reason things don't seem to work that way, and that's a pretty minor part of the process?
Sometimes previous employers don't like to talk about things in detail very much because there's a risk of libel suits.
This explanation makes a lot of sense to me, but what doesn't make sense to me is why this is specifically an explanation "for autistics". Do non-autistic people have some kind of magical intuitive sense for why and how to network? Do they just never ask these questions and just kind of do what everyone else is doing? Or is there something else I'm missing?
I know I have to do conscious reasoning about a lot of social situations that most people handle subconsciously & I kind of figure that if you're in the latter group all my insights are boring and obvious.