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tcheasdfjkl's avatar

good post. made me tear up at one point.

(I did find myself cringing a bit at the parts about how you're "supposed to believe" a thing that it seems is different from what you actually believe. but "here's what I think is valuable and important about this stance that I do also have some disagreements with" is a framing that makes sense to me and that I see a lot of value in.)

I wonder if another way to take away the occasion for wars is - not just to refuse to condone solving problems with violence, but also to identify the problems that violence is sometimes believed to solve, and to find other solutions to those problems. this need not look peaceful in its vibes. like, possibly international sports is anti-war in this sense in giving people a non-war outlet for nationalistic fervor. possibly getting angry young men into boxing is anti-war in giving *them* an outlet for their anger. possibly as you mentioned effective policing is anti-war even if it sometimes involves violence, bc it prevents other violence AND it prevents the anti-crime electorate from getting so frustrated they vote in really repressive governments. probably making democracy work well is anti-war in that it gives people a justified belief that they can make their lives and society better without taking drastic action.

WSCFriedman's avatar

I am inclined to agree with everything you said, but...

(I'm sorry, there's always a but...)

World War One was a product of not enough pacifism, not enough willingness to say "but maybe they have a point," too much eagerness to fight and die just to settle the problem.

World War Two was a product of too *much* pacifism, too much willingness to say "but maybe they have a point," not enough willingness to fight and die to settle the problem. We let Hitler take out two countries before we intervened because he sort of kind of had rights, Mussolini one, and we never did intervene to stop Stalin even when he hit... eight and a half? Something like that? We did not go in to stop warmongering tyrants because what if they had a point, and mostly other people paid the price.

After World War One, we learned the lesson too well. And that's not to say we can't be wrong in the other direction! Korea and Vietnam and Iraq were all, ultimately, a result of us learning that intervention worked and pacifism didn't, and it looks to me as though exactly one of them worked out. If we learn that pacifism works and interventionism doesn't, we may avoid the mistake of Vietnam and make the mistake of Czechoslovakia.

I'm not confident you're wrong. Just...

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