Disclaimer: For ease of writing, I say “effective altruism says this” or “effective altruists believe that.” In reality, effective altruism is a diverse movement, and many effective altruists believe different things.
Great and enlightening article, as usual. I find EA ambition and self-pushing inspirational, and all the EAs I've interacted with -almost all online, as there aren't that many down here- give me this vibe of goodness + earnestness that is always admirable. I do get the feeling, though (perhaps distorted by a smaller sample and reads) that it is relatively frequent for EAs to end up in masochistic feedback loops where they just push themselves too hard and enter downward spirals of self-loathing and inhumane effort at the cost of life, happiness and personal flourishing. The latter (dwelling on the material and intellectual relations, activities and things that give you joy and that make life a pleasure to be lived) is something I personally value as much or more than the ambition you present here. Perhaps society overvalues and overpractices it. I certainly do (if you forgive an autobiographical excursion, my education in the Humanities and the working class background of my parents instilled a deep loathing in me for practical and externally focused action, and perceiving such work as toilsome, boring, painful and inimical to human cultivation). I am quite certain EAs push it too much aside, to their own detriment.
Society undervalues personal flourishing in the extreme.
I agree that it is highly valuable, and that EAs push it aside too much.
> "it is relatively frequent for EAs to end up in masochistic feedback loops where they just push themselves too hard and enter downward spirals of self-loathing and inhumane effort"
Yes, this is related to scrupulosity - they feel like no matter what they do, it is not enough.
Yeah. There's this old idea that our greatest virtues are also our greatest weaknesses. I see how high scrupulosity can push you to achieving higher goals, but when conjoined with an ethical philosophy that is by definition unbounded, it is unlikely to have overall positive effects for the person.
I think the real evil, personally, is not malaria or illness or poverty... the real evil is guilt-tripping and obligation, and I will happily trade off all the charitable donations in the world for an end to obligate altruism. No one should ever feel like they *have* to donate.
(I don't mind some truly voluntary altruism, though I think in general people should use their resources for themselves, but if it's too large a donation - like a kidney - I think it's wrong.)
anecdotally I think a lot of grad students are consumed by guilt about their inadequacy. I'll be following up on several links here but if anyone has more practical suggestions of shifting from overly critical to divinely discontent, please share!
> "Your company can always be more successful; your novel, more beautiful; your research, less likely to provoke disdainful scoffing from time-traveling Flemish artisans. But that doesn’t mean that they’re always consumed with guilt or obligation, or that startup founders are sitting there going 'if my company is only worth $50 million, I’m the equivalent of Hitler.'
So... I actually think you understate the degree to which most wealthy people are motivated by guilt and inadequacy.
I **do** think that most startup founders feel that they are worthless and terrible if their company is only worth $50M.
I suspect Anderssen's comment is projection. This may not be true of EAs, but by and large it IS true of VCs.
That said, there are some actions by EAs that do seem largely motivated in an unhealthy way - I'm thinking specifically of kidney donation to a stranger, which to me is obviously a medically risky and foolish decision, morally wrong, and something no one should ever do.
Your ex's post about donating his kidney, for instance, was filled with his guilt and inadequacy. He was originally rejected as a donor, correctly, for psychological reasons - OCD/scrupulosity. Basically, not feeling like he was good enough if he didn't donate. Anyone who feels that way should not be allowed to donate.
And of course, referring to your "Life Goals of Dead People" post, this is something a corpse can do - a corpse can donate organs.
While it's true that a lot of EA people have a healthy ambition for accomplishing worthwhile goals, there is definitely a lot of guilt and inadequacy behind what overscrupulous EAs do. I think it's worth discussing and trying to eliminate that. Scrupulosity's a bitch.
That Marc Andreesen tweet is almost funny to me bc does *anyone* actually think that's a good way to live? Maybe they do; I haven't spent that much time in EA spaces. But to me that mindset (consuming guilt, total irrelevance of the local, being a cog) seems so obviously inimical to getting any sort of effective work done, on any problem, with any guiding philosophy.
But then again, EAs are maximizers, and as Toby Ord wisely said, 'maximization is perilous'. I remember passages from Michael Lewis's book which I found very illuminating (obviously not an expert, but very good at getting to the core of some things). In one, when FTX relocates to Bahamas, most of the employees protest and are unhappy, especially about dating and living in a backwater. The EAs, says Lewis, didn't care, and just worried about squeezing themselves and work longer hours 'for the Greater Good'. Another includes the impressions of the resident Psychologist there: “When ordinary people came to him with their ordinary feelings, he often found himself faking an understanding. The EAs didn’t need his empathy; the EAs thought that even they shouldn’t care about their feelings. In their single-minded quest to maximize the utility of their lives, they were seeking to minimize the effect of their feelings”
Great and enlightening article, as usual. I find EA ambition and self-pushing inspirational, and all the EAs I've interacted with -almost all online, as there aren't that many down here- give me this vibe of goodness + earnestness that is always admirable. I do get the feeling, though (perhaps distorted by a smaller sample and reads) that it is relatively frequent for EAs to end up in masochistic feedback loops where they just push themselves too hard and enter downward spirals of self-loathing and inhumane effort at the cost of life, happiness and personal flourishing. The latter (dwelling on the material and intellectual relations, activities and things that give you joy and that make life a pleasure to be lived) is something I personally value as much or more than the ambition you present here. Perhaps society overvalues and overpractices it. I certainly do (if you forgive an autobiographical excursion, my education in the Humanities and the working class background of my parents instilled a deep loathing in me for practical and externally focused action, and perceiving such work as toilsome, boring, painful and inimical to human cultivation). I am quite certain EAs push it too much aside, to their own detriment.
Society undervalues personal flourishing in the extreme.
I agree that it is highly valuable, and that EAs push it aside too much.
> "it is relatively frequent for EAs to end up in masochistic feedback loops where they just push themselves too hard and enter downward spirals of self-loathing and inhumane effort"
Yes, this is related to scrupulosity - they feel like no matter what they do, it is not enough.
Yeah. There's this old idea that our greatest virtues are also our greatest weaknesses. I see how high scrupulosity can push you to achieving higher goals, but when conjoined with an ethical philosophy that is by definition unbounded, it is unlikely to have overall positive effects for the person.
These posts by Ozy's Evil Ex are relevant:
https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/05/10/infinite-debt/
https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/12/19/nobody-is-perfect-everything-is-commensurable/
I think the real evil, personally, is not malaria or illness or poverty... the real evil is guilt-tripping and obligation, and I will happily trade off all the charitable donations in the world for an end to obligate altruism. No one should ever feel like they *have* to donate.
(I don't mind some truly voluntary altruism, though I think in general people should use their resources for themselves, but if it's too large a donation - like a kidney - I think it's wrong.)
anecdotally I think a lot of grad students are consumed by guilt about their inadequacy. I'll be following up on several links here but if anyone has more practical suggestions of shifting from overly critical to divinely discontent, please share!
> "Your company can always be more successful; your novel, more beautiful; your research, less likely to provoke disdainful scoffing from time-traveling Flemish artisans. But that doesn’t mean that they’re always consumed with guilt or obligation, or that startup founders are sitting there going 'if my company is only worth $50 million, I’m the equivalent of Hitler.'
So... I actually think you understate the degree to which most wealthy people are motivated by guilt and inadequacy.
I **do** think that most startup founders feel that they are worthless and terrible if their company is only worth $50M.
I suspect Anderssen's comment is projection. This may not be true of EAs, but by and large it IS true of VCs.
That said, there are some actions by EAs that do seem largely motivated in an unhealthy way - I'm thinking specifically of kidney donation to a stranger, which to me is obviously a medically risky and foolish decision, morally wrong, and something no one should ever do.
Your ex's post about donating his kidney, for instance, was filled with his guilt and inadequacy. He was originally rejected as a donor, correctly, for psychological reasons - OCD/scrupulosity. Basically, not feeling like he was good enough if he didn't donate. Anyone who feels that way should not be allowed to donate.
And of course, referring to your "Life Goals of Dead People" post, this is something a corpse can do - a corpse can donate organs.
While it's true that a lot of EA people have a healthy ambition for accomplishing worthwhile goals, there is definitely a lot of guilt and inadequacy behind what overscrupulous EAs do. I think it's worth discussing and trying to eliminate that. Scrupulosity's a bitch.
That Marc Andreesen tweet is almost funny to me bc does *anyone* actually think that's a good way to live? Maybe they do; I haven't spent that much time in EA spaces. But to me that mindset (consuming guilt, total irrelevance of the local, being a cog) seems so obviously inimical to getting any sort of effective work done, on any problem, with any guiding philosophy.
But then again, EAs are maximizers, and as Toby Ord wisely said, 'maximization is perilous'. I remember passages from Michael Lewis's book which I found very illuminating (obviously not an expert, but very good at getting to the core of some things). In one, when FTX relocates to Bahamas, most of the employees protest and are unhappy, especially about dating and living in a backwater. The EAs, says Lewis, didn't care, and just worried about squeezing themselves and work longer hours 'for the Greater Good'. Another includes the impressions of the resident Psychologist there: “When ordinary people came to him with their ordinary feelings, he often found himself faking an understanding. The EAs didn’t need his empathy; the EAs thought that even they shouldn’t care about their feelings. In their single-minded quest to maximize the utility of their lives, they were seeking to minimize the effect of their feelings”
Monks, etc.
Very good article. I’ve always had low ambition TBH, altruistic or otherwise.