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Thelo's avatar

"I’m NOT allowed to suggest that the conference should pick different speakers who think we should hug kittens instead."

Even this step seems very open to nuance, depending on how strong we interpret "suggest" here. Enter Alice and Bob, two conference attendees:

Alice: "I don't think that inviting Kitten Kicker was a wise decision. We have Harry Hugger right here in the audience, who was perfectly ready to give his Hugging for Humanity talk. Couldn't we have him talk instead? If I hold a conference, I'll invite Harry Hugger instead."

Bob: "How dare the conference invite Kitten Kicker! They're a monster! By inviting them, they have revealed themselves as monsters too! And everyone who attended the conference are monsters by association. Let's all review-bomb them and throw rotten eggs at the conference staff, who live at 123 Main St., so that the world knows to shun them forever more!"

Both Alice and Bob are suggesting that the conference should pick different speakers, but I think that Alice really is following the virtue of freedom of expression, while Bob isn't. (Right?)

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tailcalled's avatar

This seems so reasonable and well-thought-out!? How are you so good at this

Though I'm uncertain about where that leads to with Blanchardianism. Some particular thoughts:

* One thing that comes to mind is the cancellation of Michael Bailey. Let's say he forwards a claim or seeks to make a presentation or something. It seems semi-common for activists to poison the well by going on about the fuck-saw incident and his association with racists and "he thinks trans women are perverts". Doing so seems like unfair noise, yet also seems highly effective in practice, and it doesn't immediately have to break any of the rules you set up (though I guess does kind of break the virtues?). On the other hand, while these are unfair to cancel on, he's a ridiculous person who does lots of terrible stuff. Most recently he's got a paper out titled "Psychometric evidence that paraphilias are a natural kind", where he claims to make data available to reasonable requests, yet when I requested to know what websites he recruited from, he refused, saying it would be "too much work". This seems invalidating, arguably even retraction-worthy (the reason he refuses is most likely that sharing it would undermine his study - I can write more in detail about that if you are interested). So there's this thing about Bailey where everyone is going after him for stupid reasons but also he really needs people to go after him for less-stupid reasons. It's unclear how hard people need to go after him, and maybe even the form of going after him that needs to occur doesn't have to contradict freedom of expression. (Are retractions a violation of freedom of expression? What if, like with his ROGD paper, the retracted paper stays publicly available after retraction with only a retraction notice?)

* Conversely, I've done a lot of yelling at Blanchardians. For example, Phil Illy was worried that my review of his book would've turned off a lot of rationalists if it had made it to the finalists. Blanchardians claim my book review is unfair. I don't *think* that's true, I review lots of major claims he made, but one could just say I'm biased. If I'm biased, am I undermining freedom of expression by putting up a negative review of an already-marginalized position? If my book review is accurate, are Blanchardians being unvirtuous by patting each other on their back and agreeing with each other that I'm biased? Does it matter whether I think they are getting a core point right that most other people are getting wrong? (What if I think the core point is less important than they think and I think them being obnoxiously wrong about endless stuff justifies people disbelieving in their core point?)

* Blanchardians tend to advocate ROGD theory, and conversely trans people find it urgent to start HRT. Especially trans teens want to start HRT ASAP to not get wrecked by puberty, whereas ROGD theorists urgently want to restrict HRT for trans teens. Is it acceptable to try to get ROGD theorists removed from jobs providing trans healthcare? To put "retracted" notices on ROGD papers in prestigious journals? To spy on ROGD support groups and share the findings publicly? (What if the ROGD groups spy on trans healthcare groups?)

* Is it unvirtuous for me to go "well, I tried talking to Blanchardians, but they are extremely unreasonable, so I really don't recommend it"?

Like Blanchardianism really shook my faith in freedom of expression. It's closely associated with many other taboo right-wing opinions, and ultimately it's just this bizarre knot where people feel like they've found The Truth and they sorta kinda have but they are being so terrible about it in every way conceivable that it'd be better for them to just forget.

Conversely, maybe there's a sort of, neuroticism element to it. Like suppose someone sees something that doesn't quite add up and they try to bring it up to the authorities. But the person doesn't really have a clue what it means and so annoys the authorities and they shout them down. Maybe the person becomes sad and anxious because the problem isn't being taken into account. Like is that what happened to Zack? More generally, at times I turn out to be overly forceful in disagreeing with something and then later I go "oh fuck, I was wrong". But also, it just genuinely is annoying when someone is implying that they've found The Big Thing and then they run around in circles without actually answering what that big thing is supposed to be.

To some extent, I'm wondering if the root cause is what I'd call "coercive differential psychology". Like there's the "nice" kind of differential psychology like self-report personality tests, where there's much less controversy because it's all based on how people self-identify. Like, you'd hope there's a connection between self-identity and reality, but the point is that because our best way of observing that connection is self-reports, you don't have to argue to other people that they are ACTUALLY AGP or whatever. Meanwhile, trying to expose what people REALLY are creates an inherently adversarial element which then diffuses out and makes people (including me, IMO) "the worst version of themselves". Like one can try to resolve the conflict by prescribing better social behaviors but maybe it's just inherent to the general topic.

On the other hand, it's not like you can Just Not do coercive differential psychology, right? Psychiatry seems inherently full of it, as does politics, and both of these are closely linked to trans healthcare.

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