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OmgPuppies's avatar

I don't agree with "It was clearly intended for stupid people whose research would discover sovereign citizen bullshit," for a few reasons. Firstly, if the jurors do their own research, that research can't be cross-examined; if someone is called upon to serve as an expert witness, the other side can cross-examine or provide their own expert witnesses to dispute. Secondly, doing your own research can lead you to people discussing the case, and for obvious reasons we don't want jurors influenced by outside sources. Thirdly, it can lead you to inadmissible evidence, which sort of defeats the purpose of having some evidence be inadmissible. Fourthly, even knowledgeable, intelligent people can be misled by finding one paper and being unaware of the papers on the other side of the specialized debate.

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Walter's avatar

Ooh, ooh, I served on a jury! We heard a case, deliberated and returned a verdict, it took about a week. It happened back right after Obama was elected the first time.

Our case was like this.

A man's business model was borrowing a lot from banks to buy land to sell to to guys who build houses.

The market crashed and no one was buying the land.

He had no money because his family ended up with it.

The banks wanted their money back.

Bank case was, basically, that he realized things were about to go sour, gave the money away where it wouldn't be reachable, declared bankruptcy.

Rich guy case was, basically, just because I'm bad at business doesn't make my wife/trust for unborn child legally dubious. I'm allowed to be generous!

Facts that stick with me.

1. Everyone in the jury hated the rich guy and the banks. If there had been a way to make them both lose it would have been taken.

2. Most people on board (contrary to your experience) were not smart people. Large confusion about what money had been stolen, and from whom. Very 'Law and Order' expectations, for a boring and basic financial situation.

3. Both sides, during course of the trial, were exposed. Bankers had convos like 'we can string him along and get him to take out more loans', well past the point they were acting like guy should have known he was bust. Guy had convos like 'They can't get the money back if you have it, hehehe'.

4. One side called in an expert and then the other side objected that their expertise hadn't been established so they just turned around and left.

Final resolution was we figured out the first time he defaulted on a loan and reasoned that, after that had happened, any money he gave away was given away by a person who knew he was in financial peril and was thus likely hiding the money. So before that default, a ok, estate planning. After, sinister hiding of the banks rightful money.

No idea if this was a miscarriage of justice, we'd been there 4 days at this point. We had jobs to get back to.

Except, though, that even after the cutoff point there was one transfer we ruled was legit. It was the one to the trust for the unborn child. Two of the older ladies on the jury didn't want to take money away from a baby.

Both sides didn't expect the jury to come in with a verdict that day, they were still trying to patch things up in nightly meetings.

After the trial the banks lawyer mentioned that the idea of clawing back the money was a fantasy, the wife/cousins would have already spent/given it away by now, but that there was another objective to the lawsuit, it established something that would be evidence in some other case.

Left confused but overall hopeful. It felt like something approximately correct had occurred, though it firmed up my resolution not to end up in front of a jury.

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