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SkinShallow's avatar

This is a really good post. I think the loss of the "transsexual" aspect from some of the discourse at least is counterproductive. I also think that the idea of *changing sex* makes intuitively more sense to most people than the "I've always been female/male" position. But naturalist bias is big in humans so I get why the "born this way" argument is rolled out so often.

This also reminded me of the "cis by default" essay and concept which I really like (I am one of those people who when asked "if you woke up tomorrow in a male body would you not still be a woman" is pretty sure that FOR ME the answer would be "no I don't think so, I'd be a bloke who used to be a woman -- but who knows, really -- the idea is certainly interesting in principle and not horrifying even tho I like running on estrogen).

But surely most of the conflict about sex vs gender based rights (legal/political), where it exists, is ultimately about the basis for permissible/not-illegal exclusion? And because most of exclusion that's legal is based on "sex based rights of women/females" it affects trans women much more than trans men? So what's argued is whether this permissible exclusion is going to be based on the original birth certificate, the "biological" gamete potential thing; current hormone levels; self identification; or (that's the terf elephant in the room that is rarely explicitly stated but I think very much drives many activists) being in possession of a penis.

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JC's avatar

I really disagree with the part about social transition:

> "Social transition is, at its core, a request that people stop applying the norms of some particular gender to you, and instead apply the norms of a different gender."

I'm not sure I'd agree with this at all. Social transition is, at its core, a request that people recognize you as your gender identity - but it's not about gender *norms.* For a lot of people, it's mostly about names and pronouns.

See, gender norms are *wrong.* They should not exist. They are evil. And they're still just as wrong or evil even if they give some trans people euphoria.

Ideally, people would be treated as people, regardless of whether they present as masculine men, feminine men, nonbinary, masculine women, or feminine women (or something else entirely)!

In reality, people treat people differently for a variety of reasons. Some relate to appearance, some to presentation, some to genitals, some to gender.

Not everything's about gender - sometimes people are treated based on sex or genitals (assumed, deduced, inferred, or known).

> "And, yes, even in liberal and feminist areas, women and men are treated differently."

Because they're not really "liberal" or "feminist." (Not to mention that a lot of supposed "liberals" or "feminists" support DEI / wokeness, that is, the idea that women should be given special treatment or advantages because of past sexism.)

Or because what looks like treatment based on gender is actually treatment based on something else.

For instance, many people divide people into two groups, not based on *gender* but based on their potential sexual interest vs complete lack of sexual potential. It makes sense that someone would, consciously or unconsciously, treat people differently based on potential sexual interest vs complete lack of sexual potential.

> "(If they aren’t, then social transition ought to be really easy, right?)"

No, not necessarily! Not at all.

Suppose you treat men and women completely equally, but you accidentally misgender a non-passing trans person, for instance.

> "But it’s the subtler differences that are, in my experience, most important to trans people. Trans women want to go shopping with the girls, or fangirl about the cute boys on the TV show, or form those no-you’re-beautiful-I’m-hideous hugboxes that I thought I left behind in middle school why are you people like this."

But cis men want all these things too! And it's not fair and not right to exclude people for these reasons.

And let's be real, girls include girls for these things based on popularity and appearance, not just being cis girls, and will include trans women as virtue signaling.

This made me sad to read. As a genderqueer/genderfluid/agender amab person with no desire to physically transition, I want all these things! So sad.

> Trans men want the affectionate shittalking of male friendship, or the camaraderie of gym culture, or the cheerful sleaziness of gay male casual sex.

See, all those things are open to cis women, if they're willing to participate in them the way men do! No need for any transition!

Another example of asymmetry - no cis women has ever been excluded from these things, whereas cis men are often excluded.

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