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Drake Thomas's avatar

Lots of agreement with the spirit of this post, but I'd like to gripe a bit about the actual numbers here:

* I think you're using Brian Tomasik's catfish estimate for the farmed fish multiplier rather than his salmon estimate or a weighted combination of the two, but I'd expect the salmon one to be closer to accurate - US catfish consumption is around half a pound per person per year,[1] while annual US salmon consumption per capita is around 2.5 pounds[2] of which around two thirds[3] is farmed (at least as of 2004), so with just those two datapoints I'd guess that typical farmed fish consumption looks around a third as bad as pure catfish numbers would imply.

* Weight seems like a bit of an unfair metric for evaluating how much someone's giving up - calories seems more proportional to how much of a person's diet things take up, which makes the amount of sacrifice here more like 50% than 20%.

* The "eliminate 95% of suffering" claim here only goes through if you eliminate eggs/poultry/farmed fish AND replace their former roles in your diet with exclusively vegan foods. Depending on what you substitute with, this could make the ethical savings substantially worse. In particular, if a reader scales up their beef, pork, and wild-caught fish consumption to match the same total meat intake, this will roughly double the suffering of their diet relative to having substituted with vegan options, which makes the savings more like 90% (or 90 -> 80%, if we use adjusted fish numbers as a baseline).

* More subjective, but I don't think the numbers Brian uses in the calculator are all that representative of typical moral weight consensus - e.g., I'm personally inclined to put pigs/cows at much larger than 1.1, and to downweight fish more significantly. The cow/chicken ratio of 2 is much less extreme than found in surveys like those mentioned in https://slatestarcodex.com/2019/05/01/update-to-partial-retraction-of-animal-value-and-neuron-number/, where ratios range from 6.5 to 13 depending on the survey. Most of these changes push in the direction of making the suffering difference between food sources appear less extreme.

[1]: https://www.aces.edu/blog/topics/farm-management/us-farm-raised-catfish-industry-2021-review-and-2022-outlook/

[2]: https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/epdf/10.1111/jwas.12619

[3]: https://iseralaska.org/static/legacy_publication_links/greatsalmonrun/SalmonReport_Ch_8.pdf

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SkinShallow's avatar

I'm really surprised by the low amount of suffering due to pork: intensive pig farming (crates etc) is pretty horrific and pigs are among the most sentient and intelligent meat animals, to the point that they are (or used to be) studied for stress response to help model humans.

Perhaps it's because so little pork is relatively eaten by Americans? Would you advise that people living in pork-heavy countries (some Asian, Eastern European etc) should also exclude pork if they want to follow ameliatarian diet?

Also, what about lamb? I'm assuming the amount of suffering is comparable or lower than beef, though the animals are much smaller, so how would that compare? And presumably wild game meat and "farmed" venison is lower on suffering than beef?

[I'm in the UK, if it makes a difference]

PS. It's probably of zero interest to you, but since reading your previous post on meat related suffering, I've excluded farmed salmon (I ate no other farmed fish) completely from my diet and it wasn't anywhere near as hard as I thought.

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