20 Comments

Minor note:

> Lysine-rich foods include [...] seitan

This is sort of true in the sense that seitan is almost pure protein, but as proteins go, seitan is a poor source of lysine because it only has 57% of the recommended amount of lysine per gram of protein (source: https://doi.org/10.1002/fsn3.1809).

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Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but wouldn't that make it a *good* source??

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A good source of lysine would have >=100% of the recommended amount of lysine per gram of protein, or a number close to 100% (such as 90%). 57% is much less than that.

If your body needs 50 grams of "balanced" protein, then you'd need to eat 87 grams of seitan (= 50 / 0.57) to get enough lysine.

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Flax and chia are not a sufficient omega-3 source. Specifically, you need omega-3 EPA and DHA supplements. Flax, chia, canola oil and most other vegetable-based sources don't have much in the way of omega-3s usable by the body--it’s all ALA, which converts very inefficiently to EPA and DHA.

The Amazon algae oil supplement you linked is fine; algae oil is basically the only (afaik) vegan source of EPA + DHA.

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How about eating oysters? Source of omega-3s, plus iron, B12, selenium, vitamin D, some calcium. Plausibly incapable of suffering: https://dianaverse.com/2020/04/07/bivalveganpart1/ Even if they *are* capable of suffering, they almost certainly don't suffer from confinement!

(I heard a rumor that omega-3s are much better absorbed / safer when taken from fish than from supplements)

(Oysters also have a ridiculous amount of zinc and copper. I try to eat just 1 or maybe 2 8oz tins per week at most, to avoid overdose. Due to the zinc and copper, they're great to eat if you're coming down with an illness.)

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omega-3s from fish are not safer, as fish have dangerous levels of heavy metals (mercury, arsenic, lead) and toxic chemicals (pcbs, pcbbs, etc). These are not present in algae oil supplements. All the good EPA and DHA without the contaminants. Also oysters and bivalves are not vegan.

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advocating eating animal products (milk and clam) in a post for vegan nutrition is bad taste. Causing animal suffering because milk is more convenient than a b12 supplement is an obviously bad argument, especially considering the negative health effects of milk intake (saturated fat etc). You would benefit checking out nutritionfacts.org which has great evidence based recommendations including easy to digest (lol) infographics,

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What I don't understand is if vegans have all this to think about why do non vegans who don't eat healthy diets at all typically get by just fine without paying any attention to vitamins etc. is eating a couple of basic meats really so protective or would everybody likely be deficient in something if they tested it all?

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Vitamin deficiencies are pretty common in omnivores too. Something like 70% of Americans have a vitamin D deficiency: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitamin_D_deficiency#Epidemiology

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Yes, eating a couple of basic meats is really so protective. Meat tends to have what humans need because that animal needed (and got, and stored) it too.

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But most meat is reared in factaory farms that eat very simple food not a complex diet.

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And yet it still nourishes humans better than a heavily-researched vegan diet. There's a moral there.

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Thanks a lot for writing this post!

No discussion of choline or creatine?

Liver has high amounts of: B12, iron, Vitamin A, choline, and various other nutrients. Since cattle are less suffering-intensive, I sometimes eat beef liver. I figure there's at least a chance that eating weird organ meats won't create demand for additional slaughter.

I wouldn't eat liver *too* often, lest you get excessive Vitamin A or copper. There's a big online controversy about the risks of getting too much Vitamin A. I think the people who preach Vitamin A minimization are most likely cranks, but I still reduced my liver consumption some just to be sure. I think 4oz liver every 2 weeks is probably reasonable?

So yeah, if you're too lazy to get tested for deficiencies, you could just fry yourself some beef liver and see if it seems to be satisfying a craving.

Again, thanks for writing this post -- it made me realize I might have a calcium deficiency.

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The body makes choline and creatine in sufficient amounts without needing exogenous intake, but you can have vegan supplements of these if you desire (soy lecithin and creatine monohydrate).

Similar to your other comment, liver is not a healthy source of those nutrients, as beef liver has been shown to accumulate heavy metals like lead, cadmium, and mercury as well as persistent organic pollutants like PCDD, PCBs, and PBDEs. A simple multivitamin is a cheaper, more ethical, healthier, and less disgusting way of getting your B12, iron, vitamin A, and other nutrients than liver.

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Jan 18Edited

I made a meme:

https://i.imgflip.com/9h3wf6.jpg

(I don't think there's a way to post pics inline in the comments, is there?)

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Where are the memes? No memes yet!

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Carrots in hummus? Those just don't go together.

What with that, and your interview quote:

> for more than a century we have had a perfectly good plant-based substitute for butter. It's called margarine. Margarine has not displaced butter. It tastes fine

I'm seriously concerned about your taste buds...

Margarine is disgusting. It's not perfectly good, and does not taste fine. Health risks aside, the reason it has not replaced butter is its extremely inferior taste.

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I am not vegetarian anymore and don't personally spend much time wading into the numbers for animal suffering (although I am very glad some people are doing that work!). But I'm curious about the claim that cow's milk doesn't cause much suffering.

When I had a baby and started breastfeeding, it was suddenly apparent to me how much breastfeeding contributes to bonding, quite apart from its dietary and immunological benefits. Accordingly, it suddenly seemed terrible to mechanize that relationship via whatever commercial dairy farms do (I honestly don't know if I could handle the details). Maybe cows are too stupid to care much about anything? But don't get me started on how I feel about human employers that think pumping is an equivalent substitute for human breastfeeding.

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I look at it as having a Christian element. We have, “all the seed bearing plants” to use to create a genesis of mankind. We literally have to create a metamorphosis or genesis of humankind to lift us out of the apocalypse on earth we are creating out of our constant consumption and need for more and more material things. Westerners are deluded if we think environmentalism will save us from a doomed future. Do what you can but right behind us is a whole third world who for the majority wants to adopt our lifestyle. To me going vegan is a step on the chain of becoming godly humans who eventually will reverse original sin and not eat or take from an environment that we make our perfect Eden thru mind over matter. We can eat our way thru dark times ahead till we can find nourishment together and become the light nature needs. We need to feed more with less and part of this is eating light not death. More herbivores in 2025 please!

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Pro tip: one 16-gram packet of Liquid IV contains 240% daily value of vitamin B12. So you can get your hydration and your B12 together!

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